Ep.145 The Power of Collaboration: How Coral Gables and Ft. Lauderdale are Growing Stronger Together

Joe Toste [00:00:40]:
For those of you who have not got the episode, techtables.com Ramundo came on a few months ago, had a fantastic conversation, covered a lot of the smart city initiatives, lives, and everything that the city of Coral Gables is doing. And we have Tamika McKay, CIO for the city of Fort Lauderdale. Tamika, welcome on the podcast.

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:00:58]:
Thank you for having me.

Joe Toste [00:00:59]:
I love it. Okay, so we're going to jump right into this. Tamika, for those who don't know you, let's kick off with your background for the city of Fort Lauderdale.

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:01:06]:
Sure. I actually started out in local government 20 plus years ago, working just as a service technician for the town of Davy. Worked there for 15 years, worked my way to information system supervisor. I worked for the Broward County School board for four years. And then in 2021, I came over to the city of Fort Lauderdale. Started out as infrastructure and operations manager, and in August I was promoted to chief information officer. Do you know my friend Dr. Joe Phillips? I know of him.

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:01:38]:
He came in after I left, but I'm still very connected to the team members there and he's doing a wonderful job there at he was.

Joe Toste [00:01:46]:
He was going to come here, but I didn't know it was spring break in Florida. So he's actually in Michigan right now, but he's going to come on the podcast virtually or at our next live event. Ramundo, same thing, just very brief. A little bit background on you. I know we recorded an episode earlier, but just for the audience here, I.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:02:03]:
Started in the early 90s as an electrical engineer in the telecommunications industry. I worked with Siemens, with Motorola Bell south for eight years. I did a lot in those early days of the Internet and the analog cellular technologies and then digital and smart technologies. And then I came to Florida and worked for a telecom company in the 2004 and city of Core Gay was just created an it department at that time. They were looking for a network engineer, and I applied, thinking I was going to stay for two years. And I'm the CIO now.

Joe Toste [00:02:35]:
I love how you skipped that whole part. I love that. And now I'm the CIO. That's great. So I want to read an email that you sent to me that I thought was really powerful and honestly, something I think we rarely hear from cities. I travel around the country and there's a lot of cities and at the state level they don't communicate with each other at all. But I thought it was super powerful. And I texted this to Jamie, but yeah, I don't think the read it.

Joe Toste [00:02:58]:
So I'm going to read this right now. You said I met with, and this is in response to Hurricane Ian. And you said, I met with Jamie and the other Florida folks at a recent session to discuss collaboration strategies around regional priorities such as broadband and cybersecurity. Jamie is a great leader and tech expert. His team's technology response to Hurricane Ian was impressive. When our Coral Gables team, police fire, it responded with mutual aid to the affected areas in county slash Fort Myers with the Coral Gables mobile Incident Command center leveraging Starlink satellite communication systems and other ICP technologies for disaster response. Jamie and his team were at the same time deploying advanced satellite communication capabilities to response across the state. And I love this.

Joe Toste [00:03:45]:
Very important for cities and counties to have a dynamic and productive collaboration with the state on technology infrastructure programs and strategies around quality of life, resilience and sustainability. Ramundo talk about the importance of cities and counties to have that dynamic, productive collaboration at the state level. When it comes to deploying digital services.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:04:06]:
Yes, we must have it, and also state and also federal. So one of the first things I did when I became assistant CIO in 2013, to start reaching out to agencies and to not only locally federal agencies like NIST or the DOE or the Department of Homeland Security, starting creating that network of support, because we have limited resources. So we have to augment our capacity with researchers from academia. For example, we work with researchers from universities, not only Florida universities nationwide and federal agencies, and with the state agencies. So that collaboration is very important because we are not alone on this. Everything we do is part of an ecosystem, all the risks and vulnerabilities that can affect one dot in that universe of things that are happening in the state. It's like having a house with 20 windows. So you protect 19 windows, but that window that you're not protecting, so that's enough to get you in trouble.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:04:58]:
So we are like one of the windows. So we need to work together. We need to have those synergies learn from each other, share lessons learned, and we do it with the county. So we share everything we're doing in smart cities, with our colleagues from our cities. We learn from them. They are doing amazing projects, for example, in the ERP cloud suite site, and we learn from what they're doing, and we share what we're doing, and that collaboration is what get us to where we are.

Joe Toste [00:05:21]:
Yeah, and I just have a quick follow up at just a high level because we already talked about it. But if you could just talk about the regional priorities for coral gables around broadband and cybersecurity so we have been.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:05:31]:
Building myself coming from the telecom industry. So, in 2004, I was welcomed by eight hurricanes, one after the other, Wilma, Katrina, and all the names that I want to forget. And the first thing that happened being three city, USA. We lost power throughout the city, of course, and that over headlines that we are undergrounding now with FPNL finally. But we had a lot of power down, 80% power down. And I noticed, well, how is it possible that we're losing the PSTN at and t. We're losing cellular carriers, Nextel and others, and Bell South. I came from Bell south.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:06:00]:
So I gave a lot of bad feedback to my colleagues at that time. Why are we losing everything? So why are we at this moment that we have to support 911, first responders, police and fire, and we lose all communications? Why is this happening? So my first priority is like, the Maslow hierarchy of needs is, okay, let's build that foundation of resilient networks, smart networks that have automated failovers between. So we started building fiber optic corridors, building microwave links for our own backhaul of point to point and point to multipoint wireless networks. And we started leveraging the Metro E from PSTN, but also getting wireless redundancy from cellular carriers and satellite. And we started using those rapid deployment kits. They were not rapid. They were like humongous, like big satellite scenes that we had to put on trucks. We went from that to military grade small, like the origami type of technology.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:06:53]:
And now it's starlink that we leveraged during Hurricane ian. But all those five layers, believe it or not, we use them all during Hurricane Irma. We have that case study from IEEE about cora geos that is connected through a disaster. We use them all. We use the fiber, we use the redundancy from the wireless point to point. We use the redundancy from the Metro e, we use cellular and we use satellite. And when we had to help other cities and counties that were impacted by those hurricanes, we had the cellular handheld. So all those layers, they are very important.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:07:24]:
So we built that foundation, and that's what got us to the point where we can deploy smart cities. But nobody was talking about smart cities in 2004. We were talking about surviving hurricanes. So what are the priorities to keep us connected, hyperconnected? Now that we are hyperconnected, now we bring the automation, we bring AI Iot connected clouds, smart city hubs, digital twins. But that's things that are happening now at this layer after we build that foundation from the ground up.

Joe Toste [00:07:51]:
Yeah. And just for, I think, the size on the podcast we talked about, I think the city of coral gables itself is, I think, what, 55,000? But the traffic that goes through to Miami is like million a week. Yeah, it's crazy. So I think just to understand the perspective of maybe on the map, it looks a little small, but the traffic is crazy.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:08:10]:
Yeah, but we have the university, too.

Joe Toste [00:08:12]:
Yeah.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:08:12]:
And the university of.

Joe Toste [00:08:14]:
Yeah. Tamika, let's start with the importance of relationships. We talked about this last night a little bit, like, at the kind of drink dinner, and if you could just maybe talk about how if we can't, we're talking a lot about getting the people right. And there's technical debt, there's other stuff. But let's deep dive on your wisdom on the importance of getting the people side of the equation right in order to get the digital transformation that you want.

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:08:40]:
Absolutely. I'll start by saying, and many of you may have heard this saying before, that culture eats strategy for breakfast. Right. And culture is made up of people. So no matter how fascinating or how complete or how comprehensive your strategy is, your framework, your plan, if you don't address the people who need to buy into that and execute that, you will set yourself up for failure. And I personally attribute a lot of my career progression to acknowledging that, even more so than maybe my more talented colleagues. Right. Putting people before the technology.

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:09:19]:
Because in the world that we live in today, it's really not about the technology. It's about people. It's about organizational outcomes. It's about improving lives. And we, as technologists, are the best individuals to bring the technology to accomplish that. But it really has to start with the people and the relationships. I can't speak enough about relationships. Relationships is the reason why I'm here.

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:09:44]:
I met you through Raimundo, and I met Raimundo through another colleague who had a relationship with him. And it all ties in together, especially for public sector. And that's one of the things I love about public sector. We share information. We're not competing against each other. Most of our war stories and most of our challenges are relatable. How much more can we accomplish by leveraging the power of sharing information, knowledge, sharing partnerships, relationships. Again, starting with people.

Joe Toste [00:10:19]:
Yeah, and I wish I had the transcript up, Ramundo, but we were talking about the importance of people, because none of the transformations matter if you don't actually help the citizen. And I forget the exact language, but I'll just add it in the show notes on the backside of this, but it was just so critical. I think a lot of times when we talk about people and people first, it's easy to gloss over and it's actually executing on the relationships and having that. People are the hardest part.

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:10:46]:
Yeah, technology is easy. It's ones and zeros. People are complex.

Joe Toste [00:10:49]:
Yeah, people are super complex. It's easy to have the API make the call because not going to disobey. Hopefully some of you are like, no, it will. Yeah, but the people are the most important part.

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:11:04]:
Before you go to your next question, I want to give you a perfect example of why relationships and investing in it matters so much. Two weeks ago we had a major network outage and at the time we have three engineers. One of the positions is vacant, one was on FMLA and the other one had a health issue. So I literally had a down network citywide, city of Fort Lauderdale, largest city in Broward county. Public safety providing support for that and hardly any network resources. Because of relationships that I've built over the years, I was able to pick up the phone on a Saturday and call in favors for people who were with their families, but they had no problem. They didn't think twice about coming in and helping me and the situation that I was in. And because of that, we were able to get services restored by the time folks arrived at work Monday morning.

Joe Toste [00:11:58]:
Yeah, that's great. Ramuna. The first time you came on the podcast, we talked about the rich history of coral Gables and all the smart city initiatives which we highlighted in that podcast and talked a little bit about today. That's all on techtables.com. But for our time today, can you talk about what it means to collaborate with peers like Tamika in South Florida?

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:12:15]:
Yeah, that is what she said. Better than me, basically. That's what really takes us to the point where we are now that even with limited resources and everybody doesn't have all the human capital and the financial capital that we need to do it by ourselves. So that way we have to collaborate. And one example, Tamika for example, and her team, they deployed an ERP recently and they are still going live to other faces and we are now going live with the same ERp that she deployed. The amount of lessons learned that we got just by that experience of them going live. So that saves a lot of dollars to the taxpayers also because in Cora Gables, but also that help us to collaborate back with them when we are deploying new faces. So we are going to continue working together.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:12:54]:
So that kind of things really saves time, saves cost, and also for the organizations, but also save problems and get us better to the mission to the end goal that we all have. So that collaboration is key and also going back to the human aspect. So either if you are in the private sector, when I was in the industry, that your profitability is a direct relation of your customer satisfaction. So in government, I bring in my team. We have the same kind of, like, mindset. Everything is about the voice of the customer, the satisfaction of our citizens. We need to take it in the same way. How we take it in the private sector is that our residents can go to another city.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:13:33]:
Our businesses, they can take their business to another city. The businesses we are attracting, they can make the decision and go to another municipality. And we help each other in that way, too, that we think that by bringing the economic growth and attracting those tech businesses to our region, we help each other, because the way those businesses are creating jobs and are helping the economies in the entire South Florida region for everybody, for Lauderdale, for Miami, for corrugated. So we have that collaboration mindset, but at the same time, a safe, competitive mindset as well. An entrepreneurial mindset where we try to excel and bring the quality that will retain our customers. In this case, the citizens are the customers, but we treat it that way, the same way how we treat it in the industry.

Joe Toste [00:14:14]:
Yeah, I love the service mindset. Tamika, can you also talk about what it means to collaborate with peers like Ramundo?

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:14:21]:
Oh, it's everything. So, as Ramundo shared, we're further along in our ERP implementation than the city of Coral Gables. So some of the lessons learned, some of the pitfalls, some of the do's and don'ts, he now does not have to find that out the hard way. I can share that information with him. On the flip side, the city of Coral Gables has gone leaps and bounds in smart city than Fort Lauderdale. So I want to leverage his experience and his successes in implementing a smart city to help the city of Fort Lauderdale. So it's a mutually beneficial relationship.

Joe Toste [00:14:56]:
Yeah, this is great. And I do want to highlight, because this is actually pretty funny. Cios, they talk. They talk big time. And what do I mean by that? We threw an event in Austin at the Commodore Perry estates, and we, my wife, Jack post, passed out in this car seat, and we picked up Kevin Gilbertson, who's the state CIO of Montana. And he said, you know what, Joe? I get so many vendors that are hitting me up. He said, I just started qualifying people by. They listen to your podcast or not.

Joe Toste [00:15:21]:
And I was like, Kevin, that means the world to me. I love. Yeah, yeah. So if you ever want to talk to Kevin, you'll have to actually listen. He's been on a couple of actually, and he's smart. You'll have to have details. The guy was wicked smart. But I love that collaboration because on the podcast at the end with Mandy Crawford, who's the state CIO in Texas, he said, if you better treat for the vendors out here, you better treat the CIOs well because we talk.

Joe Toste [00:15:47]:
And he pulled out his cell phone and he's like, I'm texting people all the time. He's like, yeah, I text people all the time, too. You want to know what's happening in Texas, what's happening in Arizona, right? And same thing, like, if he trusts the ERP system, you're going to trust that. And that's the collaboration that we want to weed out all the people as we were talking earlier who are bad actors, and that's the type of collaboration we are. I know we're going to pick up the pace a little bit. We are going to open up the Q A right now. So we're going to take up more than we'll. A few questions for our kind of city panel.

Joe Toste [00:16:18]:
Who's got a question right off the bat? Mr. Grant, I'd love to know opportunities.

Jeremy Rodgers, CISO, State of Florida [00:16:23]:
That the state has where we could do a better job either offering or solving problems you're having at a local level that the collaboration you'd like to see. What are some tangible examples of what we're not good at and what we could do better for you?

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:16:36]:
For me, fairly new in the CIO role my 7th month, and what I've seen so far from your office has been amazing. The communication, the collaboration, bringing people together. Even though I wasn't in the CIO role for most of my career, I didn't see that, at least from the level that I was. So I think you should continue doing that. The partnership, the collaboration is extremely important, even just for professional development and just sharing war stories, because nobody really understands us the way we do. So I would say keep doing what you're doing, and I look forward to collaborating with your office even more so in the future.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:17:14]:
I echo her words because we have seen a lot of collaboration from you, Jamie and your team that honestly, we didn't have that communication with the state before on the technology level. However, we have tried to get involved with the broadband programs because at the end, what we're doing locally in Corgos to connect those areas with digital inclusion capabilities, for digital literacy programs, to bring connectivity for telemedicine, for connected vehicles. Today we have vehicles to everything, and we are going to have more and more needs for that hyperconnectivity. I feel that the state can maybe help us to get those couriers expanded and built. And in the case of corrigue, we build those couriers in an area of Miami Dade county that we have the potential to connect to the highway and to connect to the north and build some sort of like a triangle for research, for development. So those projects, I will be more than happy after the session to share some of those ideas, and then I already shared some of them with Jeremy. So we look for collaboration and for help. What you're doing with the grant program, we appreciate it.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:18:20]:
We have applied to some of those grants the same than many of our colleagues, because we feel that we can do more with cybersecurity. We can expand our capacity. It's about people, but also about the infrastructure that can support the automation that we need today that we are living. We have to protect us against adversarial AI. So we need to have the advanced threat detection capabilities, deep learning capabilities as well. Besides the training that Ameka mentioned, that's an area where we can also get some help from the state to create those training programs for our.

Joe Toste [00:18:54]:
Another. Do we have another question from the audience? Yes.

Lacey Elmange, Inspire Leadership Network [00:18:58]:
Lacey, executive director for Florida CIO and South Florida CIO, which is part of Inspire CIO leadership Network. You mentioned one of our taglines for the network is the answers in the room. And you guys explain that, right? You can pick up the phone and call and you've learned some lessons that he doesn't have to face. I see a lot of collaboration between government cios. Do you guys take the opportunity to collaborate with other industries and sectors and learn from them? An example I'll give is Todd Ryan, who has been on your podcast, and he. I know he went to Georgia. We miss you, Todd. Fun fact is, I actually nominated him for the Orbee award that he ended up.

Joe Toste [00:19:36]:
So it was like, hey, Todd, I'm Todd. No, Todd. Okay.

Lacey Elmange, Inspire Leadership Network [00:19:41]:
He mentioned, like, the biggest thing about the inspire network is he gets to collaborate outside of just government. So do you guys leverage those opportunities outside of government to learn from your peers?

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:19:52]:
Right.

Lacey Elmange, Inspire Leadership Network [00:19:52]:
From other industries?

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:19:53]:
Yeah, absolutely. One example that comes to mind is we have a lot of technical debt, and there's a lot of what I call Tuadi. I got it from the Phoenix book. Have you guys read the Phoenix project?

Joe Toste [00:20:05]:
I'm reading that right now.

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:20:06]:
Okay, so twatty. It's tw A-D-I. The way we've always done it. So we have a lot of that in the city of Fort Lauderdale, but we're working through that. And I realized that there was an opportunity for me to help educate and do a better job at partnering with the business units. There's been this traditional kind of disconnect, if you will, or separation or silo, if you will, with it and the business units. And we all know that it is no longer in the back office anymore, right, where we just sat in a room and we only came out when it was time to eat. We're now part of the strategic plan.

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:20:45]:
We are part of driving organizational goals and helping our business partners accomplish them. We can't do that if we're in the back room. So my goal was to find a way, and I'm a new CIO. They don't know me. When I worked at David for 15 years, I had the advantage of people knowing me, knowing my reputation. So how do I get in there and build that trust and build that confidence and build that partnership? So the first thing I did, I said, I want to hold a state of its address. And what's the best way to get people in a room? Offer them food.

Joe Toste [00:21:19]:
We have food and beverages.

Tamecka McKay, CIO, City of Fort Lauderdale [00:21:22]:
And I knew I didn't have the budget to do it, and I knew that based on ethic rules, we can't have vendors come in and provide food. So I found a loophole. They can provide food as long as it's in an open area and it is accessible by everyone in the building. So I found the smallest building in the city and we held the state of it address. I was able to provide lunch. I actually worked with our vendor, our partner, who brought in a speaker who spoke directly to the business units on how they were able to implement smart city automation, knowledge sharing, and even monetizing the enormous amount of data that we as government employees are harvesting. And I think that was a success because I got so much great feedback, and I'm now on the road to leveraging that, to continue building those partnerships and hopefully accomplishing more and maybe looking like coral Gables in a few years.

Joe Toste [00:22:25]:
Yeah, no, I love that. And the book she's referring to, actually, I had a CIO gifted to me who's a friend out in Arizona who actually got promoted, is now the deputy city manager. So the Phoenix project, a novel about it, DevOps and helping your business win. I'm just going to read the summary because it's really good. Bill is an it manager at Parts Unlimited, and it's Tuesday morning on his drive into the office, and Bill gets a call from the CEO. The company's new it initiative, codenamed Phoenix Project, is critical to the future of parts Unlimited. But the project is massively over budget and very late, maybe by ten years. The CEO wants Bill to report directly to him and fix the mess in 90 days or less.

Joe Toste [00:23:01]:
That's a forcing function for you. With the help of a prospective board member and this mysterious philosophy of the three ways, Bill starts to see that it work has more in common with manufacturing work than he ever imagined. Another great book is called the goal process improvement. Very good. And with the clock ticking, Bill must organize workflow to streamline the interdepartmental communications and effectively serve the other functions of parts unlimited in a fast paced and entertaining style. Three illuminaries of the DevOps movement deliver a story that anyone who works in it will recognize. Readers will not only learn show to improve their own it organization, they'll never view it the same way again. And it is a fantastic.

Joe Toste [00:23:41]:
I'm maybe almost halfway there through it, but yeah, it's really good. We'll take one more question from the audience.

Jeremy Rodgers, CISO, State of Florida [00:23:49]:
And I'd like to discuss. You talked about some of the collaboration as well as some of the competition at the state level. Our metrics are, when we're looking at how we're doing from a state level, even outside of are where are folks moving from? Where are folks moving to? Where industry, where's talent moving to? And we're seeing, I think at the state, people are flocking to Florida, right? We're seeing innovation, investment. People want to be here. They may not want to be in some of the other states as much. So we're seeing people come from California and New York and flooding to Florida. When you look at how you report up to your executive, whether it's a city manager or mayor or your board of directors, how do you go about, and this is my boss, what does scorecarding look like from you? How do you start developing your board reports, your reports to your executives, and what do you measure your teams on?

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:24:35]:
Of course, we follow methodology from business school, like balance scorecards. And we report about the financials and the innovation and the change that we are driving and productivity metrics. But I have a mantra, and the mantra is, basically, we have a strategic plan that you can find it in our itdigital library. If you want to look at it. It's coragable.com, itdocs, and there. So it's 150 pages, strategic plan, very detailed. Nobody reads it say, not this too long. So I developed a poster with eight strategic management frameworks, industrial engineering mixed with PMP and other things.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:25:11]:
And they said, yeah, but that's too busy. Okay. I came up with a mantra. I didn't come up with common knowledge. It's basically keep the customers happy and also keep the lights on, keep the wheels moving, keep the team sharp, and get things done. So basically we have to report on those five things. So basically keep the lights on. So why is your business continuity? How are you keeping pretty much the business on and all the framework and the services that are servicing your citizens, but at the same time that you are keeping business continuity, you are transforming the business.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:25:44]:
So how do you keep the wheels moving? So what are your transformation in terms of projects and strategies that you are implementing? Keeping the customers happy. So that's critical. Listening to the voice of the customer in any sector, in any vertical, and making sure that your customers are happy. So you have to do a lot of service. That we do digital service to citizens. We use AI and machine learning to gauge public sentiment. With the analytics, the AI and the sentiment that is listening to all the media out there and listening to tv channels and translating that to text and feeding that into AI models. We get dashboards about work clouds.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:26:15]:
What are the people, day by day, neighborhood by neighborhood, talking about that? What are their concerns? And that changes the way we can do the strategic realignment based on those needs and priorities that are constantly evolving, keeping the team sharp, because our most important capital is the human capital. So all those measures that have to do about the training, certifications of. I see particularly my team, like a general contractor firm, so we have all the disciplines so we can execute quickly with high ROI and finally get things done. So what is the results? The outcomes align, always alignment with the needs and priorities of the residents and with the needs and priorities of the leadership of the organization. That alignment metrics. So it's like 20 major metrics that follow some of those frameworks. But if you ask me how to summarize it, it's those five items in that mantra.

Joe Toste [00:27:08]:
And I didn't read the 100 page report, but pro tip, I extracted the text through into GPT and chat and I just asked, seriously, I asked, give me the most important things that the city of Coral Gables cares about. What do they. And I just extracted all of that.

Raimundo Rodolfo, CIO, City of Coral Gables [00:27:22]:
We use that a lot today.

Joe Toste [00:27:23]:
Yeah. Well, thank you both for coming on the podcast. And next up, we're going to have Laura Debella and Melanie Griffin to close us out.