Ep.104 Mental Wellness: Your Identity is Not Your Work with Summer Xiao, Deputy CIO - Enterprise Applications/PMO at City of Houston

Joe Toste [00:00:05]:
Hey, what's up, everybody? This is Joe Toste from techtables.com and you're listening to the public sector show by techtables. This podcast features human centric stories from public sector, cios, cisos and technology leaders across federal, state, city, county and higher education. You'll gain valuable insights into current issues and challenges faced by top leaders through interviews, speaking, engage mints, live podcast tour events. We offer you a behind the mic look at the opportunities top leaders are seeing today. And to make sure you never miss an episode, head over to Spotify and Apple podcasts and hit that follow button and leave a quick rating. Just tap the number of stars that you think this show deserves. And to continue this darn good conversation, head over to the Q a section on Spotify.

Joe Toste [00:00:43]:
Awesome. Well, Summer, welcome to Tech table. So today we have Summer Shao, deputy CIO of enterprise applications at the city of Houston. Summer, you took a vip first class bus to Austin. Thank you for coming to the commodore.

Summer Xiao [00:00:57]:
Thank you. Thank you, Joe. I was saying this is the vip experience of the tech podcast too, at this point.

Joe Toste [00:01:04]:
Oh, I love that. Is that a testimonial we can get afterwards? Let's have her in the corner. Let's get that recorded. So today's podcast is actually titled Mental Wellness. So your identity is not your work. This is based on a conversation that me and you had, and I'm actually super excited. I've never actually covered mental wellness here. I cover it with my high school basketball team all the time, but not actually with anyone in the public sector or with adults.

Joe Toste [00:01:27]:
So let's start at the 30,000 foot level, summer and the we'll move down to your insights at the city of Houston. When did you start noticing mental wellness as an important topic with your team?

Summer Xiao [00:01:38]:
I think I noticed it. I would say even before I had a team coming out of college, my first very stressful project, I was having mental breakdowns. And that's when I realized the path we chose to be it professionals isn't going to be easy mentally. And then so at my job at the city, I think when it really started hitting me, when we started having implementations of several large projects, ERP projects, never fun, always necessary. And they started stacking on top of each other. And that's when I started realizing my team's general mental well being, including my own well being, being really connected to how the projects are going.

Joe Toste [00:02:28]:
Yeah. And when it comes to creating a safe place to share that stress. ERP project after ERP project, what does that look like for you. And maybe some lessons learned from how to actually communicate and share that stress.

Summer Xiao [00:02:43]:
So I think the first thing is people don't share stress with others that they don't trust. So you can't just sit somebody down that you haven't spent time, invest time in getting to know. Right. You can't just be like, hey, you, come in. Are you stressed out today?

Summer Xiao [00:03:01]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:03:04]:
So the first thing starts with any good leadership is developing a trust relationship with your team, whether that's on everyday work or when it gets stressful. Once you have that relationship, usually those moments of sharing happens more often in one on ones.

Summer Xiao [00:03:21]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:03:22]:
And then when I start seeing a pattern that everybody's sharing, that they're stressed out about the same project, it kind of elevates to. We'll start joking in status meetings. Oh, let's go do group yoga right now. I'll take all. Everybody take a deep breath. We're all going to be okay. But that's how you create the safe environment. First is establishing trust.

Summer Xiao [00:03:40]:
Second is in those one on one relationships. And I share my stress with the.

Summer Xiao [00:03:44]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:03:45]:
I'm like, I'm stressed out to everybody's stressed. And then third, gradually bring it in as part of the project to say, hey, mentally, we're all feeling it together.

Joe Toste [00:03:56]:
Yeah, I love that. Building the relationship and then having those one on ones and doing the yoga breaths can be okay.

Summer Xiao [00:04:05]:
Deep breath.

Joe Toste [00:04:06]:
Yeah, I love that. So on our intro call, you had mentioned something that can make or break our team, and that's the importance of not holding on to distraught individuals just because they're high performing individuals. And I'm sure everyone in the audience has had a high performing individual on their team. So tell us a little bit more about how you find that imbalance and how you handle that situation. The process for your team to heal.

Summer Xiao [00:04:28]:
Those decisions are never easy.

Summer Xiao [00:04:30]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:04:30]:
And the biggest learning I took away is in order for you to be a high performing individual, naturally, you push yourself. Most of my team members are very hard on themselves.

Summer Xiao [00:04:43]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:04:44]:
And a lot of times, even the individual who becomes distraught are very well intentioned. They don't even know they're doing it. They don't know that they're causing stress and pressure to everyone, and they don't even know they're doing it to themselves.

Summer Xiao [00:05:02]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:05:03]:
So before even thinking about letting somebody go, my biggest learning was, how do we not get people in that situation, right? How do we recognize it earlier to say, hey, I think somebody's really going down this. They're really unwell emotionally, and mentally, how do we peel them back before they become a negative influence on everybody else?

Summer Xiao [00:05:28]:
Right.

Joe Toste [00:05:28]:
And do you have any maybe, like, tangible tips around? How do you make that person aware of what they're doing, even if they might not think they are aware?

Summer Xiao [00:05:36]:
It comes in individual conversations.

Summer Xiao [00:05:38]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:05:39]:
Usually I'll come out of the gate and say, you're not your usual self.

Summer Xiao [00:05:44]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:05:45]:
Like, I can't get through to you. I've noticed mistake after mistake. Are you doing okay?

Summer Xiao [00:05:52]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:05:52]:
And you have to recognize that early in the situations where we had to let people go, I think as a leader, I haven't recognized that early enough. That's the biggest learning. So I'm constantly serving right now, especially as my top performers who's going to start going down the path. Let me yank them back. Right. And some of the sure signs that somebody is under distress is if they're a high performer and they lose the ability to listen, you find yourself having to repeat something multiple times, and they still make the same mistakes.

Summer Xiao [00:06:22]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:06:23]:
Or you find them arguing with you when they usually wouldn't argue with you or combative. So now I've learned to see that as a sure sign that I say the project is getting to that person.

Summer Xiao [00:06:36]:
Right.

Joe Toste [00:06:36]:
Yeah, that's great. In the basketball world, I've had some of my guys get technical fouls, and so then I have to sit them on the bench. And especially when they're really good, it's very painful for them to sit there, but you got to give them a moment to breathe and work through that. Another thing you mentioned was that no one comes to you saying that the technology isn't performing. I love that because I'm always preaching that it's about the complexity of humans and not the technology holding teams back. So if it's not the technology, what are maybe two to three tips for leaders to get their team members performing?

Summer Xiao [00:07:06]:
Yeah. So goes back to what I said in the beginning, trust. And then the second thing is the awareness that we're all human.

Summer Xiao [00:07:14]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:07:15]:
That we have emotions, and it's okay to discuss them at work. Not all the time. Mostly when it's affecting your project performance or work performance. That's when we get to discuss it.

Summer Xiao [00:07:25]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:07:26]:
And also getting support from leadership, which I have great support at the city that I'm not talking about a foreign concept. When I go to my CIO saying, hey, summer is stressed. It's not a foreign concept to her. She's very accepting. And I think that's really important, is to have this awareness through all levels for the organization.

Joe Toste [00:07:49]:
And what is it from the leadership team that you really like around them supporting you? What is that?

Summer Xiao [00:07:55]:
Yeah, I mean, when I brought up, hey, everybody is stressed out. They will immediately say, the directors that the city will say, we know, and they are stressed out, too.

Summer Xiao [00:08:05]:
Right?

Summer Xiao [00:08:06]:
And then they will ask, what do we need to do? Or they will, at project meetings, give reassurance to everyone, saying, hey, it's difficult, but we're in it together. And one particularly difficult project, I'm still living through it, but our joke is we only need two things for the project to be successful. We don't need infighting with our business partners, and we need leadership, support. Everything else we can handle, the team can handle. So that's what they do.

Joe Toste [00:08:31]:
I love that. So let's wrap up with a comment that you had made to me, that your identity is not your work. How do you help your team members internalize that philosophy to foster a sense of identity outside of the workplace?

Summer Xiao [00:08:43]:
So I have a funny story about that. So I grew up in China, and I came here and was in fifth grade, and somewhere along the way, somebody talked about the concept of the separation of church and state.

Summer Xiao [00:08:56]:
Okay.

Summer Xiao [00:08:56]:
And when you grow up in China, there is no separation of the church and state because there's just no church, there's just state.

Summer Xiao [00:09:03]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:09:04]:
And I've come to realize that personally, for me, it was very hard to focus on the family because I grew up in an environment where most of my family members are entrepreneurs. They took work home all the time, all family conversations oriented around work. So I didn't have a concept of family. If I didn't have a concept of family, I couldn't separate myself because it didn't know the concept.

Summer Xiao [00:09:28]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:09:28]:
If there's no concept of church, you didn't know it needed to be separate.

Summer Xiao [00:09:31]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:09:32]:
And then, so how somebody really finds their identity outside of work is you really have to find who you are outside of work. If you realize you don't know who you are outside of work, then you can't really separate work from yourself.

Summer Xiao [00:09:46]:
Right.

Summer Xiao [00:09:47]:
And then I do it to my peers and my other colleagues at the city all the time. When I see them getting really stressed, they're working at 10:00, 12:00 and I say, let's all say my work is not me. I'm not my work, my work is not me. I'm not my work. And you think it's funny? I do repeat that to people. I'm like, well, let's say it together. Yes.

Joe Toste [00:10:08]:
Do you ever just turn off your cell phone?

Summer Xiao [00:10:10]:
Yes, I recently. Oh my God. The first time I did that was of this year. I took my kids to Disney.

Joe Toste [00:10:17]:
Oh, nice.

Summer Xiao [00:10:18]:
Yeah.

Summer Xiao [00:10:18]:
And I turned off my cell phone only because it was so expensive to go to Disney that, not because I didn't want to work, I didn't want to check my email. I wanted to take full economic advantage of the money I paid at Disney. Did not want to waste my money. And the first two days was uncomfortable. And then I got used to it. I was like, this is a nice feeling. I guess nothing has fallen apart yet. I think.

Joe Toste [00:10:45]:
Yeah, if you're wondering, my phone is off right now for the audience members and I will still have someone text me and go, Joe, you're not picking up. It's a little hard during a podcast, especially live, to pick up your cell phone. Ruth is trying to text me right now. Well, Summer, thank you for coming on tech tables. I appreciate it.

Summer Xiao [00:11:01]:
Thank you so much, Joe. It was wonderful experience.

Joe Toste [00:11:03]:
Hey, what's up everybody? This is Joe Toste from techtables.com and you're listening to the public sector show by techtables. This podcast features human centric stories from public sector, CIOs, CISOs, and technology leaders across federal, state, city, county and higher education. You'll gain valuable insights into current issues and challenges faced by top leaders through interviews, speaking engagements, live podcast tour events. We offer you a behind the mic look at the opportunities top leaders are seeing today and to make sure you never miss an episode, head over to Spotify and Apple podcasts and hit that follow button and leave a quick rating. Just tap the number of stars that you think this show deserves. And to continue this darn good conversation, head over to the Q A section on Spotify.