Ep.105 How Great Leaders Inspire Action with Mandy Crawford, CIO, State of Texas & Kevin Gilbertson, CIO, State of Montana

Joe Toste [00:00:05]: Hey, what's up, everybody?

Joe Toste [00:00:06]: This is Joe Toste from techtables.com, and you're listening to the public sector show by techtables. This podcast features human centric stories from public sector, CIOs, CISOs, and technology leaders across federal, state, city, county and higher education. You'll gain valuable insights into current issues and challenges faced by top leaders through interviews, speaking, engage mints live podcast tour events. We offer you a behind the mic look at the opportunities top leaders are seeing today. And to make sure you never miss an episode, head over to Spotify and Apple podcasts and hit that follow button and leave a quick rating. Just tap the number of stars that you think this show deserves. And to continue this darn good conversation, head over to the Q a section on Spotify.

Joe Toste [00:00:43]: We have two special guests, Mandy Crawford, executive director and CIO for the state of Texas, and Kevin Gilberson, CIO at the state of Montana. Mandy, welcome back to techtables.

Mandy Crawford [00:00:52]: Thanks, Joe. Good to be here.

Joe Toste [00:00:54]: Kevin, welcome back to tech tables.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:00:55]: Thank you. Glad to be back.

Joe Toste [00:00:56]: Excited. So today our podcast title is how great leaders inspire action. And we've got two great leaders here who inspire action. And this is obviously a play off of Simon Sinek, who's written a number of fascinating and really great books on leadership. So, Mandy, you were once a baby.

Mandy Crawford [00:01:17]: Was and recovering lawyer.

Joe Toste [00:01:23]: You know, you've actually evolved over the years. And there was this phrase across a number of the podcasts that we've done was, while the DiR is a technology agency, the DiR is powered by humans. I love that. And it kind of basically echoes every podcast we've shot today, is that it is about humans. And, Kevin, while you spent the majority of your career in the private sector, you've more recently transferred your superpowers quote of results driven, goal focused kind of mindset to the public sector. And so today we're going to be sharing those lessons from Mandy and Kevin. So let's dive in. So Simon Sinek says Apple is not just a computer company, and just like the DIR isn't just a technology agency.

Joe Toste [00:02:05]: And I've heard time and time again, the DIR is here to leverage technology to transform how Texas government serves Texans, which I love. In the spirit of serving Texans. What do you see, Mandy, as some of the key factors to success in achieving Dir's vision?

Mandy Crawford [00:02:21]: I mean, I think for us, and it's going right back to people. And the people is the answer to all of this. And I think we may have talked about this before when I was on your podcast about, well, how does a not so baby lawyer anymore get to be the CIO of the state of Texas? And to me, whether they're working at the attorney general's office for all those years and the coming here at the AG's office, it was people problems. They come to you wrapped up as a legal problem. But at the end of the day, it's usually people. And I think that with technology, it's usually a people problem as well. That's kind of at the heart of so, you know, I see our role, and certainly what we're charged with doing under statute is to make sure that we have the right technology strategies and solutions that are available for what we call our customers, our government agencies that we serve, for them to do their jobs and accomplish their missions. And that's great to have those solutions.

Mandy Crawford [00:03:17]: I mean, it's what we do, it's why we partner with industry to be able to offer those. But I think one of the key things that focusing back on people that's helped us with our success is leveraging relationships. And I know some of the other folks here today have talked about that. And it's not just relationships with industry, but relationships with the business deciders at the agencies, as well as state leadership. And so I think that that is a crucial thing that sometimes is missing, or maybe not as developed in sub technology organizations, is understanding how to translate technology for business, and even more importantly, translate it for the money people, the appropriators, the people that you need to be able to support your mission and the endeavors that you want to do to help take technology to really drive that transformation and drive that change. So learning how to, it was a skill that I used in my prior job, and it's something that I've really enforced at this job as well, is reaching out to legislative members. We meet them in their districts to explain what we do as an organization. What are some of the challenges that we see coming from their districts and the people that they serve? And how can technology help with that? And why is it important to invest in technology and to continue that? So whether it's a technology focus or a security focus, we can't do what we do without people resources and financial resources.

Mandy Crawford [00:04:51]: So those relationships are really important to us.

Joe Toste [00:04:55]: Great. And later on the podcast, we will go a little bit deeper into those relationships. Kevin, while I was never a baby lawyer, or really any lawyer, I could barely spell SQL.

Mandy Crawford [00:05:05]: Stop bragging, stop bragging.

Joe Toste [00:05:08]: We share the entrepreneurial journey a little bit. Yeah, I love this. So on the last podcast you had this comment that I had pulled, that every dollar is important, which I loved and was really grateful for you to fly from Bozeman to Austin in the spirit of that first episode, the results driven execution, which I love. As I was researching, there's a great state scoop article that you had said, merely converting paper based processes to PDF files and sticking the on a website doesn't count as a digital service. And I love that because I had talked to a number of CIOs where I think at first the were maybe a little proud of that. But I know the governor ran a software company, as we talked about before, and he's kind of pushing. And so I was kind of curious, what benefits have you seen by breaking those old mindsets and driving forward a digital first shot?

Kevin Gilbertson [00:06:03]: Well, I think there's a lot, and we're still fairly early. We are at a point where the governor, as I talked about before, has issued this 100% digital challenge, and we're going to have our first agency 100% digital by June 30. So we're kind of in the process of getting that all done. So as you mentioned earlier, kind of one of the early things is education is really important, getting them past this thought that digital means process. It doesn't mean, like I said, simply taking that PDF and putting out there. But that's the same with any IT project. A lot of folks, you introduce a new system, they want to put their old system into the new one, so you have to work with them. So business analyst type roles are extremely important.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:06:46]: I think they'll grow more and more important as time goes on. Another big learning for us was simply by starting to put this inventory together. There's a lot more duplication than I think we thought that there would be. And so that is going to be offering some opportunity for agencies to save money back and forth. And then finally, I'd say the largest learning has been all about collaboration, because when we got together, the cabinet got together and decided that June 30 was going to be the date, and we had six months to do it. I really had no idea what we were going to do. We run scaled agile framework, and we were in a PI planning session, and some of my agency, CIOs, were listening into the planning, the group that basically had to do it. And one of them reached out to me and said, you're not going to get this done.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:07:34]: And I said, yeah, you're right, we're not going to. I said, but we started talking that it's eventually going to come around to everyone, and wouldn't it be great if you were able to learn from doing this. And so we actually had five different agencies volunteer people to the project to make sure that we get it done because they're helping us to set governance. They're learning how to use the application that we're using to move over and things like that. And folks really didn't know how that was going to go, and it's gone really exceptionally well. I think we've really proven out that together we can do a lot more than independently.

Joe Toste [00:08:11]: Yeah, no, that's really great. Mandy, you used to teach on managerial leadership at the national attorney general's organization. If you could give the audience two to three tips from your experience in coaching at AG, what would they be? I think specifically in that team environment?

Mandy Crawford [00:08:28]: Sure. I think know part of it is, and we may have touched on this before in a previous podcast, is too often, I think we reward subject matter experts and folks who are good at their jobs. We reward with management. And all of a sudden, you're good at your job and you become a manager and you no longer get to do the thing that you really loved or were good at, and all of a sudden, you're just a manager with no training. So I think that, again, the focus on training leaders, on training managers is really important because at the end of the day, our teams are what make us. They'll make or break us. So I think from tips, obviously, are to build a strong team. Going back to the lawyer who ended up at the technology agency is I had to have a strong team, a strong team of technologists who had my back, who were supportive and who would also do, as we call it, like respectful dissent all the time to, hey, I don't want to drive off the cliff.

Mandy Crawford [00:09:33]: I need you to tell me before that happens. And I've got to have that trust there. So certainly building good teams, and then once you have the team there, you've got to make sure that your team is aligned with you on your vision for building up the future of the agency. So whether it's through succession planning or also just building that continuity and that bench strength, everybody has workforce challenges, whether it's private sector or public sector. It's one right now, I testified about it earlier today in front of our senate business and commerce committee, is that we have a lot of workforce challenges in the public sector right now. And so I think making sure that the team you have knows that they need to invest and get outside in their teams, maybe get outside their comfort zone, get out there, talk to your know walk the floors and really learn who your folks are, learn what they're seeing, and learn what matters to them to build them up as a team, because, again, they're essential for our success, and that investment will always pay off. That investment, in time will always be a benefit.

Joe Toste [00:10:37]: So I'm kind of curious. So we make this investment in teams, and I think it starts with relationships, and it takes a while to build relationships. Sometimes. Maybe every time, actually. Yeah, every time it takes a while. And so one of the things I've thought about a lot was this is, I think, year four that I've coached JV high school basketball team. And every year, the best JV players you get event, end of the season, they move up to varsity, and then the JV teams left with scraps, and you get the new incoming 8th graders who move up, who are freshmen. And I found the van rides to be really powerful.

Joe Toste [00:11:10]: And so this is something I was thinking about. I talked to a couple of cios. I'm like, how could I replicate a van ride where the relationships get stronger? And then this is, like, during COVID and I had item c, I was like, I'm never getting a van with you during. To be fair, I was getting tested five times a week, which is pretty intense. But I was kind of curious. Mandy, not so much. I don't think you hop in advance, but when you think about getting those relationships where they aren't right now, but where they need to be, any specific insight that maybe you can share with the audience on improving that relationship?

Mandy Crawford [00:11:48]: So I was talking with some of the folks earlier about one of the things that I make a priority is to meet with all of my employees, not just my direct reports. And we do it on a rotating basis over the year, because I want to just keep these conversations fresh, and I want to know what they're seeing, and I ask them questions about what do we do? Well, what can we do better? But I also want to know from them not only where they think the agency is going, but I want to know where they're going in five years. And those are touch points, certainly, that I do with the team members to help build again and at least communicate to them that I care about them, care about what they donate and dedicate to the state. And I also want to hear from them. I mean, selfishly, I learn a lot of information, and they are really candid sometimes, but it's okay. That's what we want. But then, as far as the other things is, I think. And this is why I love that Kevin was here because we've met at a couple different events and having peers that even though they might be in different states or my other peers here in the room who have different agencies with different missions, our problems, while they may be slightly different or our challenges, they're basically the same, maybe different scale, or there's different contracting structures or different political factors or different things that you may have going on in your state or your agency that you're dealing with.

Mandy Crawford [00:13:17]: But at the end of the day, they're kind of the same. And so it's so great to have that. Hey, how did you work this out? Or just somebody that you can vent to about a particular. Whether it's a challenging situation with a vendor partner or with legislative staff or whatever it is, it's so crucial to have that. And I find that, particularly in the technology community, I think there's really a willingness and an openness to really build those relationships and help each other out.

Joe Toste [00:13:46]: It's really great. I got to plug my previous episodes with Mandy, and they're up at four or five, but episode 39, mission and Vision show CIOs can lead great teams with Mandy Crawford. And then, actually, we go deeper. You're right. On episode 54, when the leader gets better, everyone gets better. And we go into Mandy's five questions during her one on one, which is really great. And then episode 61, the balloon of possibility. And then tonight.

Mandy Crawford [00:14:15]: Yeah, there you go. It's not the Mandy Crawford. Come on, there's 50 states and all these agencies.

Joe Toste [00:14:22]: Anyway, yeah, I'm waitlisted on a number of other state CIOs right now through the vetting process right now, I submitted my portfolio of Techtables.com, so hopefully it'll get approved. Kevin, I kind of want to ask you the same question. You come from the private sector. Exactly what? You know, maybe there's a few different minor, whether it's contracts or things like that, but relationships are still key, moving from the private sector to the public sector. Now, how have you seen using those relationship skills? You come in. We talked a little bit about it on the last episode, but maybe you could just expand upon that.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:15:05]: Well, alignment is extremely important, and so that's going to be true whether you're in private sector or public sector. And so from that perspective, it seems to be more true in public than even private that if they're not working for you, they're working against you, and not necessarily maliciously. I mean, if you're not all pulling the same direction, you're pulling against one another, and you're not getting very far. And so it's utterly critical that when you set your goals, that you create inspiring goals. You go to the why you were talking about cynic earlier, so that people can have the top of mind, so that they can look for opportunities to accomplish those goals and things like that. And so when you have those types of things, and the, the other thing is, and this is relatively the same, but I think probably more emphasized in the state as well, is priority is so important. I actually got the advice from a COO of a company that I used to work for, and that was give them an opportunity to say no. And so when you're prioritizing, we have such limited resources, and it's so easy for some other thing to be just added on top of the stack.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:16:21]: That causes stress, it causes anxiety, all these other types of things. And so when you're able to put together a priority list and basically say, hey, if we're going to add this, we have to remove this and do these other types of things, and it allows them to call me, too. I made the mistake almost two weeks ago where there was this free consulting opportunity that we had. And so I said, yeah, let's go ahead and do it. And then they came to me and says, well, it wasn't on our planning board. And so immediately I just said, you're right, we're not going to do it. And maybe we can think about planning for it in July. So it gives them that opportunity to try and maintain a little sanity.

Joe Toste [00:17:01]: Okay, now I'm kind of curious. I'm a big, like, Eisenhower to do list kind of guy. Put them in the different quadrants. I'm kind of curious on your own personal friends for the entire state, but.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:17:11]: How do you prioritize personally? It's just to do lists and things like that. But at the state level, we use what's called weightest shortest job first. It's part of the scaled agile framework, which basically allows you to take what is the business value and the risk avoidance and then kind of divide that by the effort, and that gives you the order of the things that you should work in. So by doing that, that allows us know, maintain that backlog and constantly rethink through those priorities.

Joe Toste [00:17:45]: That's great, Mandy, for yourself.

Mandy Crawford [00:17:47]: Well, it sounds like Kevin's probably a little bit more mature in his personal prioritizing than I am just because everything's a priority, because I do balloon of possibility, right. Think big. So my team's always saying, okay, that's cool, but no, again, there are the things, I mean, we have the same sort of frameworks and methodologies, and we look at risk and impact to Texans and different things like that to look and evaluate that. But I will say that sometimes the thing, well, not sometimes, always. The thing that's the hardest to juggle is those priorities that are placed upon you by outside sources, and they become your number one priority. And so you may have been going on track with something else, but then there's something, because it's the nature of public sector work and things like that, and it could be from an agency that really needs you right now because of something that's going on. It could be because of a legislative priority or a priority of the governor that all of a sudden that becomes your new priority. And so there is a lot of, I think, juggling in the public sector around that that's maybe not understood as well.

Mandy Crawford [00:18:54]: And especially when you're looking at, we do have those finite resources, and it can be a real challenge to try to figure out. So it's always top of mind for me, trying to figure out how to juggle those priorities for my team, because they do work so hard and they are so dedicated. And I worry about the burnout when there's always the newest, greatest, most important thing that they have to work on all the time.

Joe Toste [00:19:18]: Yeah, that's really great. You didn't know this, but our next podcast with Jim Weaver is going to be about burnout. You didn't know? Yeah. July 22, Raleigh, North Carolina I also have to plug my podcast with Kevin for those who are listening. Shameless plug. I know. Episode 81, workforce of the future, growing your public sector alumni. Fantastic episode.

Joe Toste [00:19:37]: Kevin's got a lot of really great stuff to say on that. Kevin, I want to continue with the learning goals now. We touched upon this on the last podcast. You've done a lot of research around learning goals. I'm a little bit obsessed about goals, so I love this topic. I always love to set a goal and then actually think, like, I think if I could do it in a 10th of the time. You always wanted to break that balloon of possibility. If you could just share from your research and experience in business consulting and it with the audience, what have you learned from all this research that you're applying right now on goals?

Kevin Gilbertson [00:20:15]: Yeah. So when you start talking about goals and everybody knows about smart, the measurable component of it, and measurement doesn't have to be a number. Measurement really only says it gives you a picture of what the future could look like. And so sometimes when you're setting a goal and you're setting something specific and it can actually work against you. And so one of the things that I always found fascinating is that there's several studies out there that say that in some cases, if you don't know how to do something, let's say something as easy as dropping a few pounds. I may set a certain number, or I may say I want to learn about nutrition and exercise. And often what you'll find is that the people who set a goal just to learn that actually do better than the people that are trying to hit a specific number. So that's not always the case, but it's always something worth thinking about.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:21:08]: One, you don't always have to use numbers. Think about learning as an outcome in and of itself. And then, just like I said, measurement is just that picture of the future.

Joe Toste [00:21:17]: I love that. Mandy. While listening to Rick Blanco, he had mentioned crafting a good story to legislators to get funding. But I was curious. You meet with a lot of legislators, like, all the time. A lot. How do you go about building great relationships with those legislatures?

Mandy Crawford [00:21:35]: Some are more challenging than others, but one thing that I try to do is, again, and it's like that with relationships with anybody, is why does it matter to them with the different members? We'll look and see what committees they serve over. Are they interested in transportation? Are they interested in health? What are their different committees and assignments? There's not a lot of folks who have either a technology background or an interest. So it's also about translating to be able to communicate to them why the technology is important and then getting back to their constituents, which we all have a boss, right? And for them, it's their constituents. So why does it matter to their boss, to the people back in their districts? And so try to communicate to them, hey, by the way, here's how much money we've saved for your school district here because they used our cooperative contracts. Or here's the different security incidents. We were able to help some of the cities in your district and communicate it that way ultimately. And then it's about trust. You got to say what you mean, do what you say, or all of those different things.

Mandy Crawford [00:22:50]: You've got to be trustworthy. And if you don't know the answer, say no, I don't know, but I'll get back to you.

Joe Toste [00:22:55]: That's really great. I think Rick echoed that, too. Keeping your word. It's fantastic. So I want to open this up to the audience. Questions for Mandy or Kevin.

Mandy Crawford [00:23:09]: Can I say something first? Yes, so on your podcast title with Jim Weaver from North Carolina burnout, is that because he's going to burn out on the barbecue competition? Because I kind of think he is. Do you all know that North Carolina threw down and said that their barbecue was better than Texas? I mean, honestly, honestly.

Cory Wilburn, CIO, Texas General Land Board [00:23:32]: As a follow up to that, Joe and Kevin, I wanted to ask about your opinion about the recent game between the Phoenix Suns and Dallas Mavericks.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:23:43]: No opinion.

Joe Toste [00:23:46]: How about them Golden State warriors tonight, 08:00 p.m.. Yeah, we got to splice this for Jim Weaver. And I actually was going to send him a video and we're just going to take it right off the camera. That's just fantastic. Yeah, it is a grilling and chilling barbecue. So for those who are interested.

Rheda Moseley [00:24:10]: I.

Joe Toste [00:24:10]: Say we as in me and my wife. But the Techtables podcast is heading to Raleigh, North Carolina on July 22 at the dock at Seaboard station. It will be a lot bigger than this, so it'll be a ton of fun where you will see Jim burn out because that barbecue. But yeah, let's open it up to any questions for Mandy or Kevin right now.

Cory Wilburn, CIO, Texas General Land Board [00:24:31]: Question for both of you. I get the impression that you get caught in the middle a lot between the agencies that you're trying to help and the legislature who can be unforgiving about some of the costs. And just as you mentioned, some of the understanding of technology. How do you guys juggle that? I mean, how is that something that you approach?

Mandy Crawford [00:24:51]: It's tough. It is a challenge because I also see, and my agency sees that a big part of our role is to be advocates for you all. And we want to have the solutions that you all need to be able to do your jobs. We want to make sure that they're cost effective, that they have real value. And that value isn't always means cheapest, which we also know is something that's been kind of chronic in state technology and trying to advocate for those expenditures that you all need while also being able to communicate that value to members. One of the things we also try to do, and as my charge to the team, and frankly, I think it's our charge under statute, is, I think that when agencies are coming to us, they're not just coming for the solutions and hopefully value, but they're also coming to us for compliance assurances. Right. Because we're doing the contracting, the procurement for you all that we've got to have the strong terms and conditions.

Mandy Crawford [00:25:56]: We've got to make sure that when you guys have the confidence that you're using our contracts that they meet all the state terms and conditions, that we've done all the legwork for you, and that it meets all the standards. And whether that's security or contracting terms, that's an assurance we want to be able to provide to you. So we try to communicate that to the legislature. But, yeah, it's a delicate dance sometimes.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:26:17]: Well, I'm a little new, so I can't say that I'm a little over a year and haven't even been through a session yet, but I would say it comes down to a couple of different things. One, I've been not in a bad way challenging the agencies, trying to make sure that I can fully understand what's going on there so that in turn, I can go and educate the legislator, because that's what it's all about. They're not always technical, and so we have to find creative ways to make things make sense in terms of one off meetings and things like that. Like I said, I just want to make sure that we're not challenging just to be difficult. But at the same time, we've got this responsibility to be able to go back to legislators and say, yeah, we looked at everything, and we feel that this is the way to go. And that gives me the opportunity to fully stand behind the agency and plug for what might be a few more dollars than that they were hoping to spend. But I can go and say, look, you're not going to get a better deal than this. You may be able to get something less expensive, but certainly not one that I'm as sure is going to happen on time, on budget, those types of things.

Joe Toste [00:27:31]: Thanks, Corey. Where's Retta? Oh, there you are. I know you got questions I would ask.

Rheda Moseley [00:27:40]: I guess you've only been in your Joe a year. I don't know, maybe three, four years.

Mandy Crawford [00:27:47]: Three years.

Rheda Moseley [00:27:47]: Yeah. I do this with myself every night just to sometimes talk myself into going back to my job the next day. Right. But what is that feeling that gets you back after a difficult stretch with, it's not an easy job. It can't possibly be an easy job.

Joe Toste [00:28:11]: She roasts Jim Weaver on yeah.

Mandy Crawford [00:28:16]: Burning desire to beat North Carolina.

Rheda Moseley [00:28:18]: No.

Mandy Crawford [00:28:20]: Do you want to go first?

Kevin Gilbertson [00:28:20]: No, I'm happy to do it. I mean, there are definitely days when it seems like nothing's going right and I go home not in the best spirits, but at the end of the day, I've spent my entire life in the private world, and I came into the public sector for a very specific reason. I've lived in Montana my entire life. And this is an opportunity I felt to be able to give back in a way that I knew and using my. So, you know, that's essentially, it's that feeling of service, that ability. Know we can actually measure and see what impacts that we're having and simple things like just making sure that we're spending the money in the right places and helping. We're doing a leadership session that we're taking a day off. Just, we have a person coming in and doing that, which for a lot of folks that were in there, they've told me that they've never had a chance to do that.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:29:15]: So it's been a while. So just little things to make the world better is what helps me overcome.

Mandy Crawford [00:29:23]: No, absolutely. I think for me it is. It's about mission, and it's knowing that it's a fight worth having even on the worst days, that there are some fights that are just worth it. And I really do believe in our mission and our vision of helping Texans and using technology to be able to do that and supporting our customer agencies. I mean, you all are the ones with the missions that really impact them. And I thought that Shana and Krishna, when they were talking about this and to you, too, Joe, about the things that, how it impacts your life. I mean, a server goes down or technology doesn't work, these are life and death issues for folks. I mean, this could mean that somebody doesn't get food on their table or there's not somebody that's sent out to help a child in need, or it's law enforcement not being able to get the things that they need.

Mandy Crawford [00:30:19]: So they're important things that we do. And I also work with a fabulous team that in addition to being just so smart and competent and dedicated, and I learn from them every day, they're really fun. We work hard, but we have a great time. I mean, I think of so many times when you're just working on just a really hard issue and you want to bang your head against the wall and someone cracks a joke and then you're just crying, laughing, because it's just absurd and great. So they're a great, fun team. I do want to also say Jim Weaver of North Carolina. No, I'm kidding. No, Jim isn't.

Mandy Crawford [00:30:55]: Actually, Jim is inspiring. He is doing tremendously great things in North Carolina, and there's a lot of things in the way that they do that I would like to be able to duplicate here in Texas. So, again, it's part of that CIO community and building up on what they do.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:31:12]: I'd actually say the same about Mandy. There's a lot of stuff that I'd like to steal, bring back home, and.

Joe Toste [00:31:17]: Actually, I have this down in the notes. But is the people part right? Yeah.

Cory Wilburn, CIO, Texas General Land Board [00:31:23]: Christian, one or two things that the two states are going to want to collaborate or learn from each other?

Mandy Crawford [00:31:30]: No, I think it'd be great. I would love to learn. I mean, especially one with your background in business and the perspective that you have. Because I've grown up in government, and so there's a certain way that I look at things. So one just sort of the fresh look and the fresh take on the way to do things I think is certainly very valuable. We also come from states that there's a lot of similarities between our states. I think that that's also really helpful when there are certain things, there may be technologies that we want to implement, but there may be reasons politically that it may not be a thing that can work in our state. So it's nice to be able to talk through and say, okay, well, how can we make that work? Or is this something that we just going to not be able to do? So there's a lot of opportunities, really to learn from each other.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:32:19]: Yeah, absolutely. Need to take advantage of it more and not to go into any futures or whatever. But I've certainly been thinking about what would these leadership courses look like, and could we be using each other as educators in that process? Because I'm sure our folks would just like to hear what's going on in other states as well. Like I said, not to speak of futures, but I've been thinking a lot that lately because that was, for me, the Nasio conference. Yes, I like meeting with the vendors, and that's a great part of it. But the most important part is that ability to collaborate with the other CIOs and that ability to, in my orientation in Nasio, they said they talked about texting another CIO while they're in the meeting with a vendor, and I kind of thought, well, I'll never do that. And two weeks later, I'm texting another CIO in the middle of a meeting because they were telling me about all the great stuff there. And in that case, it was true and it was a good connection to have, but it's a really good community for that type.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:33:24]: So for vendors, take care of your cios because we're talking to each other.

Mandy Crawford [00:33:29]: That's right.

Joe Toste [00:33:31]: And that is a great plug that I will continue. So there's July, and we are a lock for October 14 in Tallahassee with Jamie Grant and his entire team from the state of Florida. So it will be a blast following three days later, I will be on the floor at Gartner it symposium with Verizon. So we're doing ten podcasts a day. Let me know they're rapid fire. I will be there. Don't know. Fully coherent, but ten podcasts a day, but let's do it.

Joe Toste [00:34:03]: I just said, yeah, it's possible.

Joe Toste [00:34:05]: Let's go.

Joe Toste [00:34:05]: So I'm very excited about that. And any other questions? We wrap this up? Yeah, let's go, Mark.

Cory Wilburn, CIO, Texas General Land Board [00:34:16]: The rest of the room is for the most part heavy Texas, so this one's for Kevin. We have some recent legislation here around standing up to data officers introduction of data governance programs within the agencies. I just wanted to get the outsider, like Montana perspective on that within your state.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:34:40]: So we didn't do that with legislation, but we just hired our first chief data officer, I would want to say about eight months ago. And he's been working continuously on data governance across the board. And so we've placed that in our department of administration. And his job so far, it's a small office, but is really going around and talking to all the agencies and getting everyone on board in terms of data sharing and painting the vision of what we could do. So from our standpoint, we voluntarily stood it up and we've just done a lot of canvassing to make sure that people are accepting and willing to pitch in where they anybody?

Joe Toste [00:35:20]: Okay, well, I'm going to end with, you got Jim Weaver and I'm going to have to end with Jamie Grant. He actually messaged me right before this. He said he was extremely jealous. Well, I'm going to send you this clip, this video, Jamie, right here. Look at this. How jealous are you? You couldn't come to, so. But we're coming to Tallahassee. They wouldn't let him leave the state, but I'm coming to Tallahassee now.

Joe Toste [00:35:39]: So that's show. It's going to work and I'm going to fly to, so. Well, thank you both for coming on techtables. Super excited to have had you both on.

Kevin Gilbertson [00:35:46]: All right, thank you.

Mandy Crawford [00:35:46]: Thank you, Joe.

Joe Toste [00:35:47]: Thank you. Hey, what's up, everybody?

Joe Toste [00:35:48]: This is Joe Toste from techtables and you're listening to the public sector show by techtables. This podcast features human centric stories from public sector, CIOs, CISos, and technology leaders across federal, state, city, county, and higher education. You'll gain valuable insights into current issues and challenges faced by top leaders through interviews, speaking engagements, live podcast tour events, we offer you a behind the mic look at the opportunities top leaders are seeing today. And to make sure you never miss an episode, head over to Spotify and Apple Podcasts and hit that follow button and leave a quick rating. Just tap the number of stars that you think this show deserves. And to continue this darn good conversation, head over to the Q A section on Spotify.